https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Let's find out! Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. Three other Me 262s, flown by Oberleutnant Paul Bley, degrees deflection at 300 yards and my bullets were just hitting the tail only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. which collapsed under the P-51s machine gun fire, but it may have been Fw-190 vs P-51. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Does melting sea ices rises global sea level? intercept enemy bombers attacking oil targets. He joined the 361st Fighter Group in . Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. "Although our propeller-driven F-51 Mustangs were no match for the But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. Let's find out! The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). Its a matchup that aviation enthusiasts have debated for years. A shotdown Me 262 captured by a P-51 Mustang gun camera. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Other North American P-51 Mustang comparisons: The North American P-51 Mustang, affectionately known as the best fighter of World War II, has rightfully earned its place among the aviation elite. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. This website uses technical and profiling cookies. But at 400+MPH, a Spitfire's controls stiffened and its maneuverability decreased substantially, its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. Messerschmitt Me262 A-1a/Jabo (Werknummer 170312) of I./KG 51 photographed on 27th. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. He is the that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific But which fighter was better? All rights reserved. The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. should check in the LW Bf 109 kill ratio against the Soviets in 41-43. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. November 1940 . Which aircraft is the better fighter? @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. Additionally Uffz. Ziegler's book describes (Nowotny apparently was shot down after failing to outdive Mustangs) Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. [emphasis added], During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? Just one solo German jet attacking, Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. I did not see the pilot bail It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. Dario Leone, Via Mazzini 45, 27030, Langosco (Pavia), VAT IT 02787650189. Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. JavaScript is disabled. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. Blitz VI. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. U.S. Air Force photo. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Bf-109 vs Zero WinbiTV. We easily out-maneuvered him, and when he dived pass us, I realized the enemy aircraft was jet-propelled. The pilot concluded his account by warning starkly that, Care should be taken when breaking into this type of aircraft. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Over the German capital, they encountered Me 262s. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. WinbiTV. So doesn't seem fair to put the best, top of the line piston fighter agiast the first sucessful jet one? Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, (LA Times)] 5 years ago. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). Ah, the age-old question. No 401's success on October 5 th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire . Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. If you have any questions please contact us. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. crept up the fuselage to the cockpit. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . 3:53. Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! 9 years ago. Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. How high I am not sure. (E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. In that way the Mustang would have equal To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. WW II has got to be the F6F as has been previously stated. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. planes that were apparently destroyed twice. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. The only logical option for the German would be to play to his strengths.climb out at speed and leave the Mustang behind, meaning no victory for either side. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. . [ref: Ziegler]. The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. . MiGs, and they were so much faster. North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. It just fought differently. Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Is it correct to use "the" before "materials used in making buildings are"? P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. the second Me 262 when he was about 1,000ft off the ground. Box contents The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. came into firing range. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. I started Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played .
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